Gun control in the US

[gizzy]

Agreed, maybe we should take the gun stuff elsewhere. My friend who is a cop would highly disagree, he thinks its absurd that we let convicted felons purchase guns and he lives in fear that some nut-job will get ahold of a military semi-automatic assault riffle obtained under the pretense of 'hunting.' The Fraser Institute study is highly misleading since its a study in Candana, Australia, and Great Britain which has about 1/1000th of the gun ownership as in America. The number of shooting deaths in all of GB last year you could count on your fingers and toes. That would be equivalent to just one of our large cities on a good month.

I think that it would be absurd if convicted felons were allowed to purchase guns and have never said otherwise. However, if they are determined enough, they would still be able to get their hands on a gun illegally no matter what the laws are in the same way anyone can get drugs in this country now. I do have mixed feelings about people owning automatic weapons (I'm O.K. with semi-auto) but their is the collectors side of me that would love to get ahold of an antique gatlin gun(the hand crank kind on a tripod) and a tommy-gun though they serve absolutly no purpose other than sport shooting. Nor do I think that it should be easy to get a gun. The brady bill is an absolute joke IMO though. The technology exists to check records instantly and should be used (further info below).

My own proposal is

A person wishing to have in their possesion any type of firearm, must
a. renew a firearms registration yearly for each firearm in their possesion.
b. obtain a license to own/purchase firearms by attending a firearms saftey course at least every 5 years and check out at a firing range annually. This license may be terminated with a conviction of any violent felony act and must go through an appeals process if it is to be reinstated. The licence will be controled at a federal level and will be used for instant verification of purchase elligibility for all gun shows and deallers (eliminating the brady bill). Contact information must be provided in writing within 30 days by the owner when the owner moves.

At least we aren't deeling with issues from the 1988 election where Dukakis was calling for a surrender of all handguns. In fact, gun control issues in this election are almost a non issue. It seems that this election is almost going to be all 9/11 issues (at least for the debates).

The Lott Report
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

http://www.tsra.com/Lott7.htm

 

[Kirby]

We need basic gun control laws. Convicted felons, people guilty of violating gun laws (i.e. licensing, concealment, sales, transport, reckless endangerment, etc.) should be restricted or not permitted to have guns.

For example, if someone drives drunk, hurts someone with their car, etc. they can have their drivers license revoked, and forced to attend rehab, driving classes, etc. to get the license back. So if someone accidently shoots another person OR themselves, they should lose their gun license privleges in the same way they lose their driving privleges.

 

[Bryan330i]

We need basic gun control laws. Convicted felons, people guilty of violating gun laws (i.e. licensing, concealment, sales, transport, reckless endangerment, etc.) should be restricted or not permitted to have guns.

For example, if someone drives drunk, hurts someone with their car, etc. they can have their drivers license revoked, and forced to attend rehab, driving classes, etc. to get the license back. So if someone accidently shoots another person OR themselves, they should lose their gun license privleges in the same way they lose their driving privleges.

I agree 100%.

 

[mrferg]

I agree 100%.

ditto

 

[aNoodle]

Hard to disagree with that. Where are the NRA gun extremists to get this thread really going?

 

[jszar]

I am a member of NRA, but not an extremist.

I believe it is my right to own any weapon, within reason, and to use it for sporting, or defense if necessary. I also believe that the laws concerning 'self-defense' are way to strict. If you shoot someone in self-defense, and they determine that it wasnt life threatening, the guy that attacked you can sue your ass for all you're worth...thats flat out wrong.

I agree with gizzy that there should be regular registration, but I don't necessarily agree with regular courses. It is our right to own weapons, one class I would definetly agree with, but not every 5 years. If someone gets shot, its because they meant to. An if it was an accident, then there right to own a gun should be restricted much more severley, depending on the situation. For this I wish we could use common-sense, instead of laws.

The laws are fine concerning the backround checks, and regular registration would be a good addition. The laws concerning concealed weapons are OK imo, but they could be worked on a little more.

If come tomorrow there was a war that broke out on our own turf, and it litteraly came to your doorstep or inside you home, are you going to let freaks/terrorists/whoever walk into your house without a fight? If they have guns, which can be easily obtained in any county, and you don't....your bare hands will get a really goo work out, if they have time to react.

I keep a pistol under my pillow. I know people who's homes have been broken into while they were sleeping...I won't take any chances.

I don't mind working a little harder to make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons. But there is a line between reasonable pro-action, and a waste of time. People will be morons, and you can't stop everyone of them. We should do our best to prevent this, but a class that cost money every 5 years will make a significant dent in the average americans pocket. Especially if Kerry becomes president, taxes will go up, and we'll be even poorer. That isnt directed to start argument, just my own opinion.

 

[tool fan]

This not a restriction...but plain ole' common sense. Gun owners should be TRAINED on how to operate, clean, disassemble, fix their fire arms. To many WAY to many "accidents" happen because idiots have guns that don't even know how to un-load or properly clean the weapon system they own. Classes on stress shooting...any person can shoot a weapon or learn a weapon on the range with pop up targets. Try to fire accurately in a crisis situation. Any one with law enforcement or DEPLOYED military experience will tell you that "John Wayne(ing)" a pistol while running and being shot at is IMPOSSIBLE. Shooting accurately while in a "stressed" must react situation is one of the HARDEST things to do especially with a pistol.....in the dark...from under your pillow. Hollywood is B.S. I agree that EVERYONE (that is not a threat) should have the right to bear arms.....SAFELY!!! Case and point. My best friend is a team leader in Ba'quba Iraq right now, those of you who watch the news know that Ba'quba is an extremely hot spot right now. He told me that every time they (4 HMMV's, 16 soldiers) go out side the "wire" on a convoy, they spend approx 6000 rounds of ammo. This is between MK-19 Grenades, .50 cal, 7.62 and 5.56 rounds and might have 2-3 confirmed kills. This is not because they can't shoot, it is because it is very difficult to take aim on an enemy that is shooting back at you. So what I am saying is that Billy Joe with his daddy's 30.06 deer rifle is not going to be as accurate shooting at a target shooting back at him as he is with a deer. This is the training that I believe gun owners should get and it should be provided for free, for American citizens are Americas best defense.

 

[aNoodle]

So true, tool.

And police have been saying this for years. If a gun is wiped out agaisnt an intruder in the home, the gun owner is more likely to be shot with his own weapon. That's a cold hard fact. Chilling.

It's interesting that as soon as our troops got to the cities in Iraq, they enforced no firearms laws and started rounding up all weapons from people's homes....they established drop locations for people to turn in their arms and were largely given just the old broken guns. Seems kinda hypocritical of us.

jszar, Kerry said he's going to let the Bush tax cut lapse (it automatically self terminates) for wage earners outside of the middle class. I'm sorry you're going to have to pay the old tax rate on your earnings above $200,000. Poor you.

 

[dzervit]

Guns rule, liberal hippies drool...

If you don't have a record & take a safety course, shooting lessons, and understand your local & state laws then you should be allowed to pack heat. Period. Criminal scum will ALWAYS have guns. Why? 'Cuz they don't follow the laws to begin with! So why take it out of the hands of folks to protect themselves? If someone breaks into my home and I feel my or my loved ones life is in grave danger, I'm allowed to pump the bastard full of lead. God bless these United States!!!

And police have been saying this for years. If a gun is wiped out agaisnt an intruder in the home, the gun owner is more likely to be shot with his own weapon. That's a cold hard fact. Chilling.

Care to state your source for this 'fact'? I call BS on that one. Let's see it from a credible reference.

Check this out - http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm. Your more likely to die from a TON of other things than a firearm. Be careful going down those stairs!!

 

[gizzy]

I have two reasons for the recurancy training.

1. Annual range testing. If your going to own a gun, you better be able to hit what you are aiming at. This does not need to be a high stress situation but if you can hit your target in a high stress situation all the better. Last time I went to the range (while qualifying for my tan card when I was working security) I still did a pretty good job but was a little dissapointed that I could not group my shots as well as I used to (probably because it had been about three years prior to this that I had shot a gun). Note to self: practice what you preach and find a fireing range near Oswego and go!

2. Taking a class every 5 years will help to keep you sharp on the current gun laws and safety. Too many people continuously get comfortable and feel they are safe but still grab there gun while placing their finger inside the trigger gaurd and the safety also just happens to be off and an accident happens. It also provided another opportunity to learn from others experience/mistakes. I don't think that these classes should need to cost much if anything. I think there are many people that would volunteer there time to become instructors and to instruct these courses.

 

[aNoodle]

What's a liberal hippies...is that something out of the '60 before I was born?

http://www.lib.msu.edu/harris23/crimjust/guncont.htm Knock yourself out.

 

[dzervit]

Ok, so I knocked myself out. The link was just a bunch of other links and provided no usefull info. However, after browsing some of the links the msu.edu page provided, I discovered this:

A family gun is more likely to kill you or someone you know than to kill in self-defense -- but the 1993 study that claimed this assumed all gun murders in gun owning households used a family member's gun, when no more than 4 percent of the gun deaths in the study can be attributed to the homeowner's gun.
Source: John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun Control Advocates Purvey Deadly Myths," Wall Street Journal, November 11, 1998.

D'oh D'oh D'oh!! Ahhhhh... I love gun myths... guns are great, gimmie chocolate cake!

 

[Audible]

Training(tactical exam and written comprehensive exam), background check, training, good cause, training, did I say training?

Audible

 

[jszar]

Kerry has said a lot of things, I haven't started believing any of them. If he gets elected, we'll just see how things play out. Don't forget for a moment that Kerry is a polotician, so is Bush....I don't like either of them for it. They are both out to be the next president, and they are both willing to tell a few white lies to get elected, no matter the cost.

I go out every few months either to the forest, or to a shooting range. I know that most don't, and I would still agree that one course after a person is 18 or 21 should be taken. This course should teach in depth how to shoot, and all that pertains to the laws. It can be a week course it could be a couple week course. After that, regular gun registration, and MAYBE a 'check-up' at a range every year, where the gun owner would be forced to go to a range to renew his registration. But this would only last several minutes. Shoot a few shots and done.

America is not responsible for the actions of the world. America is not responsible for the choices of each individual person. If they are idiots, and accidently shoot themselves, then they are retarted and shouldnt have a gun. For those that can shoot, and don't need training, shouldnt be forced to take it. This is why i like the idea of working things like kirby said concerning DL's.

 

[aNoodle]

Ok, so I knocked myself out. The link was just a bunch of other links and provided no usefull info. However, after browsing some of the links the msu.edu page provided, I discovered this:

D'oh D'oh D'oh!! Ahhhhh... I love gun myths... guns are great, gimmie chocolate cake!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Did I actually get you to read? I guess you settled back to the a WSJ editorial written.....by all people!...and American Enterprise Institute member. Now that's fair and balanced!

Here's your man......

LMAO ROFL. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. While you're at it, why not read some other of his classics, like "Exploding the Fireworks Safety Threat," "Gore Might Lose 2nd Round: Media Suppressed the Bush Vote," "John Lott, Jr. Interviewed by National Review Online," and "Stop School Shootings Without More Gun Control." Too funny.

http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm

 

[Bryan330i]

Especially if Kerry becomes president, taxes will go up, and we'll be even poorer. That isnt directed to start argument, just my own opinion.

I remember you making a statement about how much your parents earn. I also remember something about the hours they work. All of which are very respectable and not under attack.

Are you aware of the move to eliminate overtime pay?

Do you really know what the tax differences are?

I make a bit more than your parents combined income, not counting my wife’s full-time salary. The tax differences for us are so minimal that it is hardly noticeable. Therefore I question the logic of your poorer statement.

I have been through a wide spectrum of earning levels from $5.00/hour or $10,000.00/year to more recent times. Unfortunately I have yet to experience the high earning level where these tax differences are so pronounced.


No argument-just how I see it through experience.


PS-I have never filed a tax return with dependant exemptions, creating even a worse tax scenario.

 

[dzervit]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Did I actually get you to read? I guess you settled back to the a WSJ editorial written.....by all people!...and American Enterprise Institute member. Now that's fair and balanced!

Hey, he's not the only guy out there who says the same thing. If you look at the numbers.... how is it possible? Why doesn't the media cover this? My god, people getting killed with their own guns, more than anything else!! You show me some hard numbers or studies that show that gun owners are at a grave risk of getting shot with their own firearm and then you can talk smack. You offered nothing except for a page of links. There isn't a clear study (that I've found yet) that proves your myth. THe only thing I can figure to support the myth is they count all suicides with guns as "killed by their very own weapon!!". What a joke. Wake up and smell the gun powder!

 

[jszar]

I remember you making a statement about how much your parents earn. I also remember something about the hours they work. All of which are very respectable and not under attack.

Are you aware of the move to eliminate overtime pay?

Do you really know what the tax differences are?

I make a bit more than your parents combined income, not counting my wife’s full-time salary. The tax differences for us are so minimal that it is hardly noticeable. Therefore I question the logic of your poorer statement.

I have been through a wide spectrum of earning levels from $5.00/hour or $10,000.00/year to more recent times. Unfortunately I have yet to experience the high earning level where these tax differences are so pronounced.


No argument-just how I see it through experience.


PS-I have never filed a tax return with dependant exemptions, creating even a worse tax scenario.

Well, my point was that Democrats are usually in favor of larger government, thus it costs more. But I understand your point.

 

[tool fan]

Hey, he's not the only guy out there who says the same thing. If you look at the numbers.... how is it possible? Why doesn't the media cover this? My god, people getting killed with their own guns, more than anything else!! You show me some hard numbers or studies that show that gun owners are at a grave risk of getting shot with their own firearm and then you can talk smack. You offered nothing except for a page of links. There isn't a clear study (that I've found yet) that proves your myth. THe only thing I can figure to support the myth is they count all suicides with guns as "killed by their very own weapon!!". What a joke. Wake up and smell the gun powder!

I do see your point......but ONE child being shot with his daddy's revolver that he found is to many. The Federal Laws need include such clauses as, If a child is in possession of his/her parents firearm and as a result induces self harm or harm to another individual........the registered owner of that weapon needs to be held accountable and I don't mean manslaughter...straight up MURDER.....with stiffer penalties imposed on dumb ass retarded assholes who don't respect their constitutional right to bear arms safely maybe we can eliminate gun related accidents that ARE preventable just by being an adult and being responsible.

 

[gizzy]

I do see your point......but ONE child being shot with his daddy's revolver that he found is to many. The Federal Laws need include such clauses as, If a child is in possession of his/her parents firearm and as a result induces self harm or harm to another individual........the registered owner of that weapon needs to be held accountable and I don't mean manslaughter...straight up MURDER.....with stiffer penalties imposed on dumb ass retarded assholes who don't respect their constitutional right to bear arms safely maybe we can eliminate gun related accidents that ARE preventable just by being an adult and being responsible.

Well, I can't teach my kids to stay away from guns the way my own father did - that would land me in jail real quick. My dad kept all of our guns in his office all standing upright between his desk and filling cabinet. I wasn't allowed to touch the bb gun until I was 8, the .22's until I was 12 and passed Hunters Saftey, and the 30-06 unitil I was 14. Such action would have resulted in the inability of using my arms for a number of months because they would have been in casts. This threat was enough to keap all six of us from ever touching the guns because all of us were firmly conviced that he would follow through with the threat.

I agree that there should be stiff penalties for the accidents that happen with young children -- teens could pose another problem though and should be handled on a case by case bases. Take for example a Chicago cop that was killed here about a year ago by his teenage son. The cop kept is gun in a home safe which the son drilled into supposedly getting the idea of how to break in from the move "Pannic Room". The son then shot the cop who was just comming home from work.

When I have kids, I would deffinatly like to teach them to not touch the guns until they are older and even then, to use them safely. I don't think these ideas of never spank your children just use a "time out" are effective enough though. Just look at how teens act today vs. 20 plus years ago - there is a vast difference here IMO and it has a lot more to do with disiplining your children than it does with movies. Schools are also no longer allowed much room for discipline anymore which also adds to the problem - of course, almost any modern day psycologist would probably dissagree with me.