Got this in an email

Section_8 · Nov 6, 2004

God's got better things to do in this universe then worry about our little rock of whining self-worshipping hyprocites, you can believe that..

The bible was written by Man, mostly stories and fables, parables, with some phrases and messages that are supposed to be directly from God, and even recounts of actual historical facts. As we are flawed naturally, how can we follow a book written by man? In general it's a good book to follow, with good lessons to be learned. I will not 'worship' (this is important here, the word worship) the words of any book written by man. If god comes to earth, hands me a book and says this is how to follow me, you can believe me I'll have my head in it for the rest of my life reading it.

We all know whats right and wrong in this world internally(by this I mean, any person not insane or mentally challenged, understands right from wrong, and what makes that so). The 10 commandments being a good foundation and guide for any man of any faith to follow (even those without faith, how simple is it? Don't steal, don't lie, don't commit adultury, so on and so forth..). Of course God is concerned about each one of us, as he is for every blade of grass and grain of sand on the beach (that goes for every planet out there, every sun, every galaxy), but do you think he really wants you to 'worship' him, condemn others for not 'worshiping' him, or anything of the like? I'd think an all powerful all being would simply want you to live out your life as best you can, being good and helpful to those around you, to aid them in their own life's quest. Thinking we're the only things/beings out here He's created is a shamefully proud display of what we really are at times.. Flawed creatures.

I feel quite complete in my beliefs, and comfortable in my relationship with God. It's 'Man' I have a problem with at times, telling me otherwise.

BTW, supposedy I'm roman catholic (this was my upbringing, and at my wife's insistance, the church we were married in), however I'm first a creature of god, and I serve him in my own way, which is certainly not the roman catholic way. I have walked into many churches, cathedrals in this world, some of the most beautiful places I have ever witnessed, and certainly that man has created. It's a beautiful thing to see what man can create in 'devotion'. It would be wonderful to see man 'devote' this much attention to himself, and his own problems. Theres always the argument that the church pulls in the 'stray lambs', however, what exactly are they pulling them into? The lambs should be allowed to find, themselves!

*sliding into flame retardant suit*

So here's some BMW's that we SHOULD be discussing, or something else other than the worst 2 topics you can ever find to discuss over the internet.. POLICICS AND RELIGION.

indy_85stariones · Nov 7, 2004

Kirby said:

I am glad to hear that your church bases its teaching from the Bible for its sermons and services. My hometown Methodist church in rural northern Indiana does too.

I was hoping for a response from Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans, but that wasn't the response I was looking for. I am sorry. I should not have made my previous statement.

However, I stand my position that there is a leadership crisis in the Christian community today.

For example, why do so many people hold the incorrect view that Jesus was a good man and a good moral teacher -- a mere man, nothing more? Why don't more people acknowledge that he was the Son of God?

Another example, why do so many people hold the incorrect view that the Bible was written by Man, mostly stories and fables? Why don't more people acknowledge that it was inspired by God?

Many people that hold onto these incorrect views attend church regularly. Some even have leadership positions in their church. This leads me to believe that there is a crisis.

jrt67ss350 · Nov 7, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

Because that isn't an incorrect view. It was written by man. Even if it was inspired by God, it was still written by imperfect, falliable man. Plus, so many things are lost/misunderstood/misinterpreted in translation - a testament to human imperfection in dealing with a book that was written by humans.

indy_85stariones · Nov 7, 2004

adrean8j said:

What I hope to gain from this discussion, is that everyone gains more knowledge of other peoples beliefs and that I gain more knowledge of my beliefs. My wish is that everyone would blow the dust off of their Bibles, take it out and read it, and compare it against their own personal beliefs.

I believe the Bible:
is inspired by God
is God's method to communicate with us
is very interesting and thought provoking
can be applied to today's lifestyle as well as the days when it was written

adrean8j asked how did the human race get started without in-breeding?

Reading in Genesis we know that Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Abel. Resulting from Cain's jealousy, he attacked and killed his younger brother Abel.

In Genesis 4:13-16, we see that the Lord sent Cain out of his presence into the land of Nod, east of Eden. There Cain found a wife and started his family there.

In my opinion, if God created people other than Adam and Eve in the land of Nod, then God could have created other people where Adam and Eve lived.

In Genesis 4:25, Adam and Eve had a third son named Seth, and in 5:4, they had other sons and daughters. Also, Genesis 5:2 says "He (God) created them male and female; at the time they were created, he blessed them and called them man.

This supports my opinion that God created other humans, besides Adam and Eve.

Some of you may not believe that this is specific enough to exclude the possibility that Seth and one of his younger sisters had children together. If this happened, I believe that God would have used his powers to protect them from the problems caused from in-breeding.

Moving on to your question about "The Nephilim" referred to in Genesis 6:1-4. Yes, God created angels in heaven to worship Him. Some of these angels rebelled against Him and fell from heaven. Unfortunately, these fallen angels found that the daughters of God's human creation were beautiful and took them for their wives. Later we read that their children became corrupt, violent and rebellious -- leading up to the events listed in the Great Flood.

I hope that this makes sense to you. Yes, there are other instances written in the Bible where both angels and fallen angels interact with humans, but these occurences are rare. No need to stop asking questions. Though, I would rather discuss the lives of Abraham (the birth of the Jewish faith) and of Jesus (the birth of the Christian faith).

indy_85stariones · Nov 7, 2004

jrt67ss350 said:

Do you believe that any of the events listed the the Bible to be false -- that is a good entertaining story with a good moral, but never really happened?

For example,

Do you believe that it is possible that Jesus could heal the sick and blind?

adrean8j · Nov 7, 2004

Actually Indy that does not make sense......it is EXACTLY the reason i am questioning it....how can the good book be so specific about many things but leave that out? That question i asked is a very, very important and fundamental question.....Does this mean it isnt wrong to love your sister or brother in a way........lets just say as more than a sibling???
If we are discussing jews and gentiles....lets talk about something like hmmmm......lets say the whole eating pork thing! In the new testament....I think it was peter if i am not mistaken...didnt he see a white cloth from heaven with all manner of unclean things on it(to include pork) and a voice from heaven saying all that was unclean is now clean? Isnt that kind of convenient to all of us gentiles who love our pork? LOL.....Dont get me wrong, like I said before I grew up in a christian household and those values i grew up with are an integral part of who I am...but I do not believe in the church as I did before....most of us on here DO believe in God. It is the church and the bible(in its current translation) that we have issue with. Do you honestly believe that as many times that the bible has been translated that nothing has been lost??? Do you think that King James did not have the power or influence to have passages that would cause him to HAVE to change the way he lived change or removed??? I want to see an original Latin/Hebrew copy of the bible from back then.........

jrt67ss350 · Nov 7, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

That's not the point I am making. I am making the same point that adrean is making - with the bible having been translated numerous times by humans since it was originally written, there are things that are obviously going to be left out, changed, meanings diluted or lost, etc. As a result, I have real problems when people start pushing the writings/teachings of the bible in stubborn literality. When someone is sitting here literally interpreting every word of their NRSV modern-English or other translated bible and condeming people for not agreeing with them, then I take issue. The bible is no longer in its original intended form. Yes, I do think that the bible is a very valuable instrument - the world can benefit from its lessons and teachings. But, stubbornly and unwaveringly interpreting it literally word for word is dangerous.

That's my humble opinion.

selavia · Nov 7, 2004

DAMN!!!!!

I did not realize this post would get such reactions! My apologies to anyone it infuriated or annoyed.

Ironically, I'm not Catholic; hec I'm not even Christian. I just felt the deeper message about how humans thinks about things was interesting, that's all. It kind of like reflections (actual mirror reflections) Like driving on the road, most people don't even realize that a reflection of your car in in the tiny reflectors on the road. It was one of those emails that made me stop and go hmmm. Cause quite honestly I get irritated with preachy emails, but this one seemed to have a point; I really didn't pay attention to the religious aspect of it....maybe I should have. lol.

I didn't mean to incite such verocity....quite honestly I find it refreshing that so many of feel so strongly on this subject that you chose to post something.....I knew I liked this board.

Once again, I apologized if I upset/angered/annoyed/infuriated anyone.

Cheers. Sean

Section_8 · Nov 7, 2004

jrt67ss350 said:

the point I thought I made, or tried to at least.

epj3 · Nov 7, 2004

I think indy_85stariones is gay, so he's going to hell.

epj3 · Nov 7, 2004

What I think is RIGHT!! AHAHHAHAAH You are all going to hell. All of you who don't believe in the same thing I believe in. HAHAHA. I'm not sarcastic!! hell hell hell.

indy_85stariones, are you communist?

indy_85stariones · Nov 7, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

I hope that I have not given the impression of being rude, preachy or stubborn. Also, I apologize if I cause anyone to be upset, angery, or annoyed. I am just a Bible enthusiast. Just like other people who like to talk sports, cars, movies, stocks, or whatever, I like to talk about the Bible. My perception is that people don't like to read it anymore. I would like to see more people interested in studying it.

I believe that the Bible should be read like any other book. If someone takes one specific isolated piece to support their opinion and then use it to condemn everyone else's beliefs -- that doesn't seem right to me, either. The things that are mentioned in several different places (things that are repeated over and over) are important to me. Those things, in which a person has to dig and dig and dig to find support for their argument, don't matter much to me.

One thing that I do know, and that is -- my listening skills need to get better. Let me try again. I think some of you are saying that the author's message is lost and/or misunderstood because we are not reading the original text. Things can be misinterpreted in translation, especially when the Bible has been translated, and translated, over and over again.

In my opinion, I believe the opposite, i.e. I believe that the translations have become better over time. I believe that the recent translations are much more clear and more accurate than the older ones.

For example, Does anyone remember the movie, "The Big Chill"? The actresses made several references to knowing someone in the biblical sense. This comes from Genesis 19 -- the part where God sent two of His angels to rescue Abraham's nephew Lot from the inpending doom on the city of Sodom.

In the King James Version, it says in verse 5, "And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

That is, the men of Sodom wanted Lot to open his door so that they may get "to know" the angels sent from God. A person might ask -- What is wrong with greeting the angels?

Well, in the New International Version, it says "They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Oh, big difference! The NIV is definitely more clear and accurate.

As I mentioned earlier, I like reading the New International Version for a clear translation and I like reading the New American Standard for an accurate word-for-word translation to the original text. The NIV is easier to read. The NASB attempts to recreate the structure of the original text.

This has helped me remove any doubts that I had about the new modern translations. It is the Preface that is printed in the front of every NIV Bible.
http://www.tniv.info/bible/preface.php

"The NIV was a completely new translation made by over a hundred scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The fact that participants from the United States, Great Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand worked together gave the project its international scope. That they were from many denominations—including Anglican, Assemblies of God, Baptist, Brethren, Christian Reformed, Church of Christ, Evangelical Free, Lutheran, Methodist, Nazarene, Presbyterian, Wesleyan and other churches—helped to safeguard the translation from sectarian bias. Responsibility for the NIV text is held by a self-governing body, the Committee on Bible Translation, composed of biblical scholars from colleges, universities and seminaries."

"...the Committee held to certain goals for the NIV: that it would be an accurate translation and one that would have clarity and literary quality and so prove suitable for public and private reading,..."

"The first concern of the translators has been the accuracy of the translation and its faithfulness to the meaning of the biblical writers..."

"To achieve clarity the translators have sometimes supplied words not in the original texts but required by the context. If there was uncertainty about such material, it is enclosed in brackets. As an aid to the reader, italicized sectional headings have been inserted."

"Footnotes call attention to places where there was uncertainty about what the original text was. Such footnotes are introduced by "Some manuscripts" or similar expressions."

As you can see, it took the NIV committee 8 years (from its first meeting in 1965 to being published in 1973) to complete their work. The work was completed by hundreds of scholars from several different countries and from several different denominations using the closest to original text available, to achieve the common goal of creating a clear and accurate translation.

epj3 · Nov 8, 2004

Why are you here? You have 1 real post. I think you're trying to sell bibles. [rofl]

Kirby · Nov 8, 2004

indy_85stariones said:

I doubt that anyone has taken any offense, if they have, they'll get over it. Number of posts important? Quality over quantity.

Abdoman · Nov 8, 2004

epj3 said:

I could has you the same thing - are you?

You don't believe in God, you support bigger government, and you are trying to condemn someone for their beliefs.

Sounds a lot like the communist party.

epj3 · Nov 8, 2004

Abdoman said:

No, read my posts. He's condemming ME for my religious beliefs. I'm simply saying I believe he is wrong when he says that anyone who hasnt accepted christianity is going to hell.

adrean8j · Nov 8, 2004

Hey Epj3, I may agree with you on the basic premise of your belief but lets not get it twisted. I still believe that every person has a right to their beliefs as well......a true christian would not "condemn" us to hell, but try to help "save" us from hell. I dont believe he is condemning you either, I think that he believes that in his faith that anyone not saved is going to hell.....key are the word "HIS FAITH". I honestly dont believe asking "why are you here?" and "are you a communist?" to be a little below the belt. He's here because he probably likes cars....maybe even bimmers....and last i checked this is the "General Chat" area......

LOL...gotta be fair and even!

aNoodle · Nov 8, 2004

Do you have to have DUIs, been an alcoholic until almost 40, and snorted cocaine to become Born Again?

MyHarley · Nov 8, 2004

aNoodle said:

No, just be from the South, have a low IQ and voted for Bush....good grief... [???1]

indy_85stariones · Nov 8, 2004

selavia said:

I replied to this thread, because I wanted to support Billy Graham's daughter's statement. I agree, generally speaking, the citizens of the United States have asked God to get out of our lives -- because of this He has withdrawn His blessings and protection.

Since studying my Bible is one of my many hobbies, I used my familiarity with the Book of Genesis to join in our discussion.

I thought that I was agreeing with most people here, when I said there was a leadership crisis in the Christian community today.
1) Yes, there are Atheists that have better behavior than most Christians.
2) Yes, there are Christians that have worse behavior than most Atheists.
3) Yes, there are Christians that are more concerned about the appearance of their buildings and monuments, than the lives of those in need around them.

I think where most people began to disagree with me is... If we want God to be real in our lives, then we ought to study our Bibles regularly, something like once or twice a week. In my opinion, studying my Bible is one way of asking God to be a part of my life.

If any of you strongly disagree, you have a right to arrive at that conclusion.

If any of you strongly disagree and would like to investigate how I arrived at my conclusion, I welcome any questions or comments -- it helps me gain a better understanding of my beliefs.

Someone asked whether the meaning gets lost in the translation from the original text (Hebrew, Greek, etc) into English. Sure, no doubt, some of the details can be lost because of the wide difference in vocabulary and sentence structure. Everyone has heard a joke in a foreign language turn sour after being told in another language. However, American businesses are able to communicate effectively with people from Japan, France, Germany, etc with the aid of a good translator. The latest versions of the Bible, Revised Standard Version, New American Standard, and New International Version -- all have had the best scholars with a notable ability to translate text written in Hebrew, Greek, etc.

Someone asked whether the meaning gets lost after being translated generation after generation, after generation. I say that the opposite occurs. The latest translation is better, because older pieces of the Hebrew, Greek text (each being closer to the original) are being discovered with the passing of time.

Adrean8j, I never really finished discussing the brother/sister getting too close thing. I have some more thoughts on that. You also mentioned Peter's Vision and unclean animals thing (Acts 10 & 11). I have many thoughts on that too. Would you like to hear more about either topic?

Epj3, you remind me of my buddy living down in Atlanta. He is always trying to get some sort of reaction out of me. Whenever, we go out to the clubs -- somehow we always manage to be the center of attention.

aNoodle, it is kind of sad how the term "Born Again" has developed a negative connotation. Again, this goes back to the leadership crisis in the Christian community today -- too many bad stereo-types. The term is found in the story of Nicodemus, a religious leader who recognized that Jesus' ability to perform miracles came from God. I think that it is safe to say that everyone knows that it is located in John, chapter 3. Jesus goes on to describe a spiritual rebirth.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN+3
No, several DUI's and/or a nasty Cocaine habit is not required.

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