Election determines fate of nation

epj3

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Abdoman said:
You do realize that even if Bush wanted to declare war on Iran or Korea (which there is absolutely on indication) that he would have get approval from Congress? You realize that he did get Congressional approval to declare war on Iraq.

You Kerry supporters amaze me, I mean how the heck do you know what Kerry is going to do? He has such an inconsistent record. How many times does he have to contradict himself? What do you think he's going to do in Iraq that will help the country?

I don't think Bush is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I think at his worst moment he will still be a better president than Kerry's best.
Actually he got congress to support going to war by telling them one thing. They approached the war a totally different way than what was proposed. This is why so many people have a problem with Bush. Instead of spending money on the obvious - our OWN security, we went to war.

So those of you who support war, support the fact that we've really SUCKED at this war?? I dare anyone to say and prove that we're doing a good job over there. A good job of war doesn't include 1,000+ dead americans, countless dead allies, and BILLIONS of dollars, all to catch ONE man.

Oh no, wait, to find weapons that weren't there! Err, but that doesnt matter!! We got SADDAM!! (took long enough...)

Another thing that boggles MY mind is that most of you lived through the cold war. I understand the U.S. and Russia/Former U.S.S.R. are now allies, but everyone says that the Russian inteligence was false. Well, NO SHIT. Nobody provided any actual proof that Iraq was a threat or tied with Al Qaeda (except the "Q's" in the word Al Qaeda and Iraq...hehe)

Why did we listen to them in the first place? I've always thought Russia was kind of sketchy about ANYTHING they've done.
 

epj3

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By the way, why is it so troubling to you that Kerry "Flip Flops" on issues just to suite the times? Obviously, he changed his mind NOW about the "gas tax" that 10(?) years ago he supported. Hmm 10 years ago, is when my family bought our Chevrolet Blazer brand new.

Why? Becuase gas wasn't a problem. If anyone from the Mid-Atlantic states knows of "Sheetz" or "Wawa" gas station chains, they built one in my home town, and their gas was $0.89 a gallon for low grade. Gee, that tax hike doesnt sound nearly as bad when gas is super super cheap. Now that gas is $2.20 a gallon, he wouldn't support the same tax!!!!!!!

I personally think it would be nice to have someone in office who gave more than two shits about what his PEOPLE want him to do. Afterall, this is a Democracy.

Lastly, Why does the media say "...restore peace in the middle east?" I don't think us going to WAR with a middle eastern country is going to help restore peace.
 
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Bryan, LOL

Like this country has never been divided before! ie, the 60's
I can't believe that you would even post something like this as the mindless liberal media continue to spew anti-conservative propaganda.........Give me a freakin' break. Yes, I guess if I disagree with the liberal media, it means that Bush is controling my mind.

epj3 said:
I personally think it would be nice to have someone in office who gave more than two shits about what his PEOPLE want him to do. Afterall, this is a Democracy.
epj, when I chose a candidate to vote for because he/she has the same moral views and views for this country that I have. I don't think raising taxes will help our nation. I think running a smaller more efficient government will Not that Bush is all that, but I know he will do more of what I think is the right thing to do. Now, my point is is that I really don't know what Kerry is going to do in the White House. Will he stand up for things that may not be popular but are the right thing to do for this country. Somehow by his voting record I doubt it. It takes a strong person to do what isn't popular and I just don't think Kerry will, ever. I think Bush has moral convictions that he won't compromise and I respect that.

Congress had access to the same intelligence reports as Bush. I think a lot of people forget that we gave Saddam several years to comply and he never did. I guess it's really whether you believe Bush took us to war for WMD or because he wanted to.
 
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Feed the powerful and keep the core followers down and dumb. Sound familiar?
Well, I understand what you are saying but everyone in this nation ( at least those with the mental ablility) can learn if they want to. It's not like the people are suppressed. What annoys me even more is that if you have conservative views, it's harder to learn from watching the news.
 
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I have a favor to ask of Section_8 and aNoodle. I am not able to read the text along the right edge of your posts.

The photo(s) used in your signature are too wide for my 14 monitor on my laptop. Would you please edit the photo(s) used in your signature?
 
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Section_8 said:
I'm in no way saying Bush is Hitler...
and in the same breath, I'm in no way saying Kerry is like Karl Marx and Lenin (aka Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov), but...

Has anyone noticed the similarities between Kerry's and Edward's websites and the The Russian Revolution of 1917?

http://www.historyguide.org/europe/lecture5.html
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/lecture6.html
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/lecture7.html

Browsing thru Kerry's website...
http://www.johnkerry.com/index.html

Kerry makes several attacks on the wealthiest of Americans -- demanding fairness and economic justice.

and browsing thru Edward's website...
http://www.johnedwards2004.com/page.asp?id=481

His Two Americans speech has the same passion and emotion as when Lenin poured on the fuel for the proletariat attacks against the bourgeoisie -- ulitmately leading up to the Bolshevik Revolution.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/bourgeoisie
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/proletariat

Am I serious -- Are there any similarities between Kerry/Edwards and Marx/Lenin? Of course, not!!!

It is just as ridiculous to say that there are any similarities between Bush and Hitler. Come on, Section_8, don't be playing the Bush/Hitler card! I have much more respect for you than that.
 
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epj3 said:
So those of you who support war, support the fact that we've really SUCKED at this war?? I dare anyone to say and prove that we're doing a good job over there. A good job of war doesn't include 1,000+ dead americans, countless dead allies, and BILLIONS of dollars, all to catch ONE man.
Actually we really DID perform extremely well in the war! Think about it - from start of attack to capturing Baghdad it was less than a month. When was that ever done in history????

What we really suck at is the EXIT STRATEGY.

I got this article reference in an Email today - historians analyze the war in Iraq:

-- The major combat phase of the war was a stunning tactical success for the technologically advanced volunteer U.S. military, a victory so swift and decisive that it will likely change the shape of future warfare, even if its lessons are not yet completely understood.

-- The aftermath of major combat has been largely a failure, brought on by an ill-considered postwar plan and decisions poorly made. Some found the failures to be rooted in the decision to go to war in the first place. Others said that history may yet view the current chaos as the birth pangs of a new world, especially if Iraq is able to become a genuine, successful democracy.

San Francisco Chronicle - Full Article
 
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epj3 said:
... AND you support a state government who is completely FOR the death penalty. If you ARE pro-life, please explain this to me. I'm really dumbfounded.
How can someone like myself be both AGAINST Abortion and in FAVOR of the dealth penality? This is kind of hard to explain...

Maybe Ron White of the Blue Collar Comedy Live Tour (with Jeff Foxworthy/Bill Engvall/Larry The Cable Guy) says it best...

http://www.coolquotescollection.com/cat/laughs/79/
I'm from Texas and in Texas we have the death penalty and we use it.

That's right, if you come to Texas and kill somebody, we will kill you back. That's our policy.

Right now there's a bill in the Texas legislature that would speed up the execution process of those convicted of a heinous crime with more than three credible witnesses. If more than three people saw you do what you did, you don't sit on death row for 15 years Jack. You go straight to the front of the line.

Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state's puttin in an express lane.
 
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indy_85stariones said:
Right now there's a bill in the Texas legislature that would speed up the execution process of those convicted of a heinous crime with more than three credible witnesses. If more than three people saw you do what you did, you don't sit on death row for 15 years Jack. You go straight to the front of the line.

Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state's puttin in an express lane.
[clap] [clap] [clap]

My ONLY reservation against the death penalty is the small percentage of death row convicts who have later proven, usually via DNA, that they are innocent. I like the eyewitness aspect of this legislation, it totally eliminates the "innocent convict" possibility.
 

epj3

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indy_85stariones said:
How can someone like myself be both AGAINST Abortion and in FAVOR of the dealth penality? This is kind of hard to explain...

Maybe Ron White of the Blue Collar Comedy Live Tour (with Jeff Foxworthy/Bill Engvall/Larry The Cable Guy) says it best...

http://www.coolquotescollection.com/cat/laughs/79/
I'm from Texas and in Texas we have the death penalty and we use it.

That's right, if you come to Texas and kill somebody, we will kill you back. That's our policy.

Right now there's a bill in the Texas legislature that would speed up the execution process of those convicted of a heinous crime with more than three credible witnesses. If more than three people saw you do what you did, you don't sit on death row for 15 years Jack. You go straight to the front of the line.

Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty. My state's puttin in an express lane.
Oh so if someone close to you killed my mom, I can kill the person who's close to you? Right? So both of us can be upset and without someone who ment something to us? Oh okay.

I support the death penalty, I really don't CARE about abortion except using it to make a point.

I'm surprised they aren't trying to pass bills to MAKE us go to church yet.
 
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How can someone like myself be both AGAINST Abortion and in FAVOR of the dealth penality? This is kind of hard to explain...
I don't think it's hard to explain at all.

First, epj I know your young so don't take this as an attack on your age, but if you can ask that question then you obviously NOT a parent.

Abortion kills an innocent child by walking into an abortion clinic
The death penalty kills a convicted murderer after a trial, conviction and several appeals

What is the similarity? I'm sorry, I just don't see one. Besides, if one of my love ones killed someone on purpose, then they should be punished, not by you, but by our justice system.
 

epj3

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Abdoman said:
I don't think it's hard to explain at all.

First, epj I know your young so don't take this as an attack on your age, but if you can ask that question then you obviously NOT a parent.

Abortion kills an innocent child by walking into an abortion clinic
The death penalty kills a convicted murderer after a trial, conviction and several appeals

What is the similarity? I'm sorry, I just don't see one. Besides, if one of my love ones killed someone on purpose, then they should be punished, not by you, but by our justice system.
Ummmmm innocent people are killed under the dealth penalty too. Though that could be blamed on our sad excuse of a state judicial system...
 
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epj3 said:
Oh so if someone close to you killed my mom, I can kill the person who's close to you? Right? So both of us can be upset and without someone who ment something to us? Oh okay.
No, because the person who killed your mom broke a law pre-establish and enforced by society, not you. Society has determined and carries out the punishment.

Also, your example breaks a fundamental rule of logic

If A Then B does not imply If B then A

If all dogs are animals then All animals are dogs
 
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can you name one in the last 50 years? I haven't heard of anyone innocent being killed by the justice system.

I do agree that our judicial system needs a lot of work.
 
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Executed Despite Doubts About Guilt


There is no way to tell how many of the over 750 people executed since 1976 may also have been innocent. Courts do not generally entertain claims of innocence when the defendant is dead. Defense attorneys move on to other cases where clients' lives can still be saved. Some of those with strong claims include:


Roger Keith Coleman Virginia Conviction 1982 Executed 1992
Coleman was convicted of raping and murdering his sister-in-law in 1981, but both his trial and appeal were plagued by errors made by his attorneys. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider the merits of his petition because his state appeal had been filed one day late. Considerable evidence was developed after the trial to refute the state's evidence, and that evidence might well have produced a different result at a re-trial. Governor Wilder considered a commutation for Coleman, but allowed him to be executed when Coleman failed a lie detector test on the day of his execution.


Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction 1986 Executed 1997
New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd.


David Spence Texas Conviction 1984 Executed 1997
Spence was charged with murdering three teenagers in 1982. He was allegedly hired by a convenience store owner to kill another girl, and killed these victims by mistake. The convenience store owner, Muneer Deeb, was originally convicted and sentenced to death, but then was acquitted at a re-trial. The police lieutenant who supervised the investigation of Spence, Marvin Horton, later concluded: "I do not think David Spence committed this crime." Ramon Salinas, the homicide detective who actually conducted the investigation, said: "My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved." No physical evidence connected Spence to the crime. The case against Spence was pursued by a zealous narcotics cop who relied on testimony of prison inmates who were granted favors in return for testimony.


Leo Jones Florida Convicted 1981 Executed 1998
Jones was convicted of murdering a police officer in Jacksonville, Florida. Jones signed a confession after several hours of police interrogation, but he later claimed the confession was coerced. In the mid-1980s, the policeman who arrested Jones and the detective who took his confession were forced out of uniform for ethical violations. The policeman was later identified by a fellow officer as an "enforcer" who had used torture. Many witnesses came forward pointing to another suspect in the case.


Gary Graham Texas Convicted 1981 Executed 2000
On June 23, 2000, Gary Graham was executed in Texas, despite claims that he was innocent. Graham was 17 when he was charged with the 1981 robbery and shooting of Bobby Lambert outside a Houston supermarket. He was convicted primarily on the testimony of one witness, Bernadine Skillern, who said she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield, from a distance of 30 -40 feet away. Two other witnesses, both who worked at the grocery store and said they got a good look at the assailant, said Graham was not the killer but were never interviewed by Graham's court appointed attorney, Ronald Mock, and were not called to testify at trial. Three of the jurors who voted to convict Graham signed affidavits saying they would have voted differently had all of the evidence been available.

source: Deathpenaltyinfo.org

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figured i'd drop into this thread, been burned out with politics lately (talking about it many times a day every single day can get to you sometimes, especially with the election nearing)
 

epj3

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Kirby said:
No, because the person who killed your mom broke a law pre-establish and enforced by society, not you. Society has determined and carries out the punishment.

Also, your example breaks a fundamental rule of logic

If A Then B does not imply If B then A

If all dogs are animals then All animals are dogs
Aren't laws developed by people who were elected by THE people??
 


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